Discussion:
[lfs-support] LFS Version 8.3 released, livecd, PXE
Jean-Marc Pigeon
2018-09-03 04:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Hello,


Many thanks to the team for 8.3 Release 'Well done".

Just to let know to the list, I have a 8.3 liveCD and PXE build
using the LFS book and available at URL
https://osukiss.safe.ca//downloads.php

Packaging used is RPM and yum.

My main purpose is to have HOSTs (LFS-8.3) and containers
(Centos, LFS, etc..) and replace openVZ productions system.
(Openvz is a very, very good project but, sadly,fading away :-{ )

Livecd was build (today and from scratch) within an 8.3 container
within a ZFS file system and a 8.3 HOST (production system)

Hoping this liveCD can be of some use for people interested by LFS.
LiveCD is booting under legacy mode (not EFI) on various system
(Dual processor server).

Thank again to Bruce, Ken, Pierre and all contributors, without
their work and sagacity, my little project would not have been possible.
--
A bientÃŽt
===========================================================
Jean-Marc Pigeon E-Mail: ***@safe.ca
SAFE Inc. Phone: (514) 493-4280
Clement, 'a kiss solution' to get rid of SPAM (at last)
Clement' Home base <"http://www.clement.safe.ca">
===========================================================
Bruce Dubbs
2018-09-03 06:12:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Hello,
Many thanks to the team for 8.3 Release 'Well done".
Just to let know to the list, I have a 8.3 liveCD and PXE build
using the LFS book and available at URL
https://osukiss.safe.ca//downloads.php
Packaging used is RPM and yum.
My main purpose is to have HOSTs (LFS-8.3) and containers
(Centos, LFS, etc..) and replace openVZ productions system.
(Openvz is a very, very good project but, sadly,fading away :-{ )
Livecd was build (today and from scratch) within an 8.3 container
within a ZFS file system and a 8.3 HOST  (production system)
Hoping this liveCD can be of some use for people interested by LFS.
LiveCD is booting under legacy mode (not EFI) on various system
(Dual processor server).
This is a very cool idea, but it does not work for me. It gets to ntpd
and hangs. There is something about a download and waiting 10 minutes.

Is this a systemd based system? If so, can you build a minimal System V
system?

A lot of the packages I see (e.g. crond, atd, dovecot, etc) are not
needed if the iso is to be used as a rescue system. About the only
things I would want are ssh, wget, and a text browser like links.
It would also be better to have a dhcpcd available, but not started
automatically at boot.

Perhaps there should be a few command line utilities also like pciutils,
usbutils, net-tools, gdisk, parted, etc.

-- Bruce
--
http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support
FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html
Unsubscribe: See the above information page

Do not top post on this list.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

http://en
Jean-Marc Pigeon
2018-09-03 13:35:07 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Bruce Dubbs
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Hello,
Many thanks to the team for 8.3 Release 'Well done".
Just to let know to the list, I have a 8.3 liveCD and PXE build
using the LFS book and available at URL
https://osukiss.safe.ca//downloads.php
Packaging used is RPM and yum.
[..]
Post by Bruce Dubbs
This is a very cool idea, but it does not work for me. It gets to ntpd
and hangs. There is something about a download and waiting 10 minutes.
Is this a systemd based system? If so, can you build a minimal System V
system?
A lot of the packages I see (e.g. crond, atd, dovecot, etc) are not
needed if the iso is to be used as a rescue system. About the only
things I would want are ssh, wget, and a text browser like links.
It would also be better to have a dhcpcd available, but not started
automatically at boot.
Perhaps there should be a few command line utilities also like pciutils,
usbutils, net-tools, gdisk, parted, etc.
- it is systemV
- NTPD is trying to load the the file "leap-seconds.list", my guess is
your DHCP serveur is not providing default route or DNS.
- pciutil, gdisk, wget, sshd are included in liveCD,
"linksi" applcation is available (via yum)
net-tools is not (yet?) available, but inetutils is within
livecd.
usbutils not available, but will be included in liveCD.


Thanks Bruce, I liked you comment.
Matter of fact LiveCD was designed as a demo+install tool
(demo: do we have a minimal workable LFS system set of commands,
install: do we have tools to quickly install/duplicated on system
disk).

But for Rescue process, components as atd, dovecot, ntpd are indeed huge
overkill.
Give me few days to build and validate a "LFS rescue liveCD".
Post by Bruce Dubbs
-- Bruce
--
A bientÃŽt
===========================================================
Jean-Marc Pigeon E-Mail: ***@safe.ca
SAFE Inc. Phone: (514) 493-4280
Clement, 'a kiss solution' to get rid of SPAM (at last)
Clement' Home base <"http://www.clement.safe.ca">
===========================================================
Jean-Marc Pigeon
2018-09-05 13:44:38 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Bruce Dubbs
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Hello,
Many thanks to the team for 8.3 Release 'Well done".
Just to let know to the list, I have a 8.3 liveCD and PXE build
using the LFS book and available at URL
https://osukiss.safe.ca//downloads.php
Packaging used is RPM and yum.
[..]
Post by Bruce Dubbs
A lot of the packages I see (e.g. crond, atd, dovecot, etc) are not
needed if the iso is to be used as a rescue system. About the only
things I would want are ssh, wget, and a text browser like links.
It would also be better to have a dhcpcd available, but not started
automatically at boot.
Perhaps there should be a few command line utilities also like pciutils,
usbutils, net-tools, gdisk, parted, etc.
-- Bruce
Suggestion from Bruce, have been implemented.

I generated an ISO, which should be usefull in
case you need to fix your LFS.
yum and rpm is included within the ISO, such,
if a tools is missing, you can download it easy
enough. (size is 334 Mbytes)
URL:
https://okrepo.safe.ca/osukiss/8.3/isos/LFS-8.3-rescue-x86_64.iso

Hoping that help LFS users.
--
A bientÃŽt
===========================================================
Jean-Marc Pigeon E-Mail: ***@safe.ca
SAFE Inc. Phone: (514) 493-4280
Clement, 'a kiss solution' to get rid of SPAM (at last)
Clement' Home base <"http://www.clement.safe.ca">
===========================================================
Thomas Seeling
2018-09-05 15:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Hallo,
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Just to let know to the list, I have a 8.3 liveCD and PXE build
I generated an ISO, which should be usefull in
case you need to fix your LFS.
I would like to learn how to build a LiveCD. I tried with squashfs
myself but I could never get it running. Could you elaborate please? Or
point to some nice instructions?

Tschau...Thomas
--
"Do you wanna be a legend or a passing footprint on the sands of time?"
Jean-Marc Pigeon
2018-09-05 16:04:24 UTC
Permalink
Bonjour Thomas,
Post by Thomas Seeling
Hallo,
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Just to let know to the list, I have a 8.3 liveCD and PXE build
I generated an ISO, which should be usefull in
case you need to fix your LFS.
I would like to learn how to build a LiveCD. I tried with squashfs
myself but I could never get it running. Could you elaborate please? Or
point to some nice instructions?
Tschau...Thomas
The best I can do is to provide you with an extract of the
Makefile sequence. That will give you "my" way to do it.
Caution: ISO building is relatively easy because I am
using YUM and RPM (yum install packages_list)
Hoping you can use it as frame example for your ISO.


#To generate a Minimal ISO file
okiso : okboot
@ sudo rm -fr /tmp/okcd_boot
@ sudo mv -f $(OKCD)/boot /tmp/okcd_boot
@ sudo xorriso \
-as mkisofs \
-v \
-r \
-J \
-A $(ISOLABEL) \
-V $(ISOLABEL) \
-o $(OKISO)$(HOMER)-$(LARCH).iso \
-boot-load-size 4 \
-boot-info-table \
-b isolinux/isolinux.bin \
-c isolinux/boot.cat \
-no-emul-boot \
-iso-level 3 \
-isohybrid-mbr isodata/isohdpfx.bin \
$(OKCD)
@ sudo mv -f /tmp/okcd_boot $(OKCD)/boot

okboot : okcd
@ sudo rm -fr \
$(OKCD)/isolinux
@ sudo mkdir -p \
$(OKCD)/isolinux
@ sudo cp -a \
isodata/ldlinux.c32 \
isodata/vesamenu.c32 \
isodata/libutil.c32 \
isodata/libcom32.c32 \
isodata/isolinux.bin \
isodata/syslinux_splash_osukiss.jpg \
isodata/isolinux.cfg \
$(OKCD)/isolinux
@ sudo sed -i \
-e "s/@@CDNAME@@/$(ISOLABEL)/" \
$(OKCD)/isolinux/isolinux.cfg
@ sudo cp -a \
$(OKCD)/boot/vmlinuz* \
$(OKCD)/isolinux/vmlinuz0
@ sudo cp -a \
$(OKCD)/boot/initramfs*.img \
$(OKCD)/isolinux/initrd0.img

#To generate a Minimal distribution directory
okcd : okimage
@ sudo rm -fr $(OKCD)
@ sudo mkdir -p $(OKFS)
@ sudo mount -o loop $(OKIMG) $(OKFS)
@ sudo mkdir -p \
$(OKCD)/isolinux \
$(OKFS)/tmp \
$(OKFS)/repoloc \
$(OKFS)/dev/pts \
$(OKFS)/etc/yum.repos.d
@ sudo cp -a \
/repoloc/empty \
$(OKFS)/repoloc
@ sudo ln -s \
empty \
$(OKFS)/repoloc/$(OKNUM)
@ sudo cp -a \
yum.repos.d/local.repo \
yum.repos.d/osukiss.repo \
yum.repos.d/safe.repo \
$(OKFS)/etc/yum.repos.d
@ ( \
cd /dev ; \
sudo cp -a \
core full kmsg mem \
ptmx \
random urandom \
console \
tty \
tty[0-7] \
ram[0-7] \
zero \
null \
$(OKFS)/dev; \
)
@ sudo yum \
--releasever=$(OKNUM) \
--installroot=$(OKFS) \
clean all
@ sudo yum \
-y \
--installroot=$(OKFS) \
--releasever=$(OKNUM) \
install \
$(RELEASE) \
installok \
$(HOMER)
@ # to remove safe.repo from official release
@ ( \
if [ -z "$(HOMER)" ] ; then \
sudo rm -fr \
$(OKFS)/etc/yum.repos.d/safe.repo ; \
fi \
)
@ # do not duplicate madm.conf information in release
@ sudo rm -f $(OKFS)/etc/mdadm.conf
@ sudo cp -a $(OKFS)/boot $(OKCD)
@ sudo umount $(OKIMG)
@ sudo mkdir -p $(LIVEOS)
@ sudo mksquashfs $(OKIMG) $(LIVEOS)/squashfs.img
@ sudo rm -fr $(OKFS)

#to generate a block file
okimage :
@ - sudo umount $(OKIMG)
@ sudo rm -fr $(OKIMG)
@ sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=$(OKIMG) bs=1M count=2600
@ sudo mke2fs -t ext4 -L ext4fs.img $(OKIMG)
--
A bientÃŽt
===========================================================
Jean-Marc Pigeon E-Mail: ***@safe.ca
SAFE Inc. Phone: (514) 493-4280
Clement, 'a kiss solution' to get rid of SPAM (at last)
Clement' Home base <"http://www.clement.safe.ca">
===========================================================
Bruce Dubbs
2018-09-05 16:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Hello,
Post by Bruce Dubbs
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Hello,
Many thanks to the team for 8.3 Release 'Well done".
Just to let know to the list, I have a 8.3 liveCD and PXE build
using the LFS book and available at URL
https://osukiss.safe.ca//downloads.php
Packaging used is RPM and yum.
[..]
Post by Bruce Dubbs
A lot of the packages I see (e.g. crond, atd, dovecot, etc) are not
needed if the iso is to be used as a rescue system.  About the only
things I would want are ssh, wget, and a text browser like links.
It would also be better to have a dhcpcd available, but not started
automatically at boot.
Perhaps there should be a few command line utilities also like pciutils,
usbutils, net-tools, gdisk, parted, etc.
   -- Bruce
Suggestion from Bruce, have been implemented.
I generated an ISO, which should be usefull in
case you need to fix your LFS.
yum and rpm is included within the ISO, such,
if a tools is missing, you can download it easy
enough. (size is 334 Mbytes)
https://okrepo.safe.ca/osukiss/8.3/isos/LFS-8.3-rescue-x86_64.iso
Hoping that help LFS users.
Much better. I was able to boot this on my laptop. It takes about 30
seconds to copy and set things up. The iso size, only 334 MiB, is nice.

There are still a few issues:

1. The 'which' command is not present. The workaround is to use 'type -p'

2. lspci is not present.

3. I'd like a way to set a default for language during the boot sequence
and possibly a font. I like to use terminus fonts, specifically in my
case ter-128n. http://terminus-font.sourceforge.net/

4. It does not recognize either my wired or wireless card. The output
of 'ls /sys/class/net' is only 'lo'. The wireless issue is probably
because firmware (iwlwifi-7260-17.ucode) is not available. However, I
do not think that you should need to install firmware on the iso.

$ lspci|grep -i net
01:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 7260 (rev 73)
07:00.0 Ethernet controller: Qualcomm Atheros AR8161 Gigabit Ethernet
(rev 10)

My kernel config for the wired connection is:

CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_ATHEROS=y
CONFIG_ATL2=m
CONFIG_ATL1=m
CONFIG_ATL1E=m
CONFIG_ATL1C=m
CONFIG_ALX=m

The ALX module is loaded in my case.

$ lsmod|grep alx
alx 40960 0
mdio 16384 1 alx

I will try this on a more generic system tomorrow at school.

Great work so far.

-- Bruce
--
http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support
FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html
Unsubscribe: See the above information page

Do not top post on this list.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_s
Jean-Marc Pigeon
2018-09-05 18:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Hello Bruce.

On 09/05/2018 12:03 PM, Bruce Dubbs wrote:
[..]
Post by Bruce Dubbs
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Suggestion from Bruce, have been implemented.
I generated an ISO, which should be usefull in
case you need to fix your LFS.
yum and rpm is included within the ISO, such,
if a tools is missing, you can download it easy
enough. (size is 334 Mbytes)
https://okrepo.safe.ca/osukiss/8.3/isos/LFS-8.3-rescue-x86_64.iso
Hoping that help LFS users.
Much better. I was able to boot this on my laptop. It takes about 30
seconds to copy and set things up. The iso size, only 334 MiB, is nice.
1. The 'which' command is not present. The workaround is to use 'type -p'
2. lspci is not present.
3. I'd like a way to set a default for language during the boot sequence
and possibly a font. I like to use terminus fonts, specifically in my
case ter-128n. http://terminus-font.sourceforge.net/
4. It does not recognize either my wired or wireless card. The output
of 'ls /sys/class/net' is only 'lo'. The wireless issue is probably
because firmware (iwlwifi-7260-17.ucode) is not available. However, I
do not think that you should need to install firmware on the iso.
$ lspci|grep -i net
01:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 7260 (rev 73)
07:00.0 Ethernet controller: Qualcomm Atheros AR8161 Gigabit Ethernet
(rev 10)
CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_ATHEROS=y
CONFIG_ATL2=m
CONFIG_ATL1=m
CONFIG_ATL1E=m
CONFIG_ATL1C=m
CONFIG_ALX=m
The ALX module is loaded in my case.
$ lsmod|grep alx
alx 40960 0
mdio 16384 1 alx
I will try this on a more generic system tomorrow at school.
Great work so far.
-- Bruce
picutils will be part of next rescue-iso (my mistake)
'which' will be included too.

Included kernel is configured with the exact same config
as yours.....but.. CONFIG_ALX is NOT set!...
(see file /boot/config-4.18.1-0.10.29.ok_8.3 once
you have the iso booted).
This is mot likely the problem, as eudev is not able to discover
WIFI card and populate /sys/class/net

Let me generate a new rescue ISO including your findings.
(Many thanks).
--
A bientÃŽt
===========================================================
Jean-Marc Pigeon E-Mail: ***@safe.ca
SAFE Inc. Phone: (514) 493-4280
Clement, 'a kiss solution' to get rid of SPAM (at last)
Clement' Home base <"http://www.clement.safe.ca">
===========================================================
Bruce Dubbs
2018-09-05 19:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Hello Bruce.
[..]
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Suggestion from Bruce, have been implemented.
I generated an ISO, which should be usefull in
case you need to fix your LFS.
yum and rpm is included within the ISO, such,
if a tools is missing, you can download it easy
enough. (size is 334 Mbytes)
https://okrepo.safe.ca/osukiss/8.3/isos/LFS-8.3-rescue-x86_64.iso
Hoping that help LFS users.
Much better.  I was able to boot this on my laptop.  It takes about 30
seconds to copy and set things up.  The iso size, only 334 MiB, is nice.
1. The 'which' command is not present.  The workaround is to use 'type
-p'
2. lspci is not present.
3. I'd like a way to set a default for language during the boot sequence
and possibly a font.  I like to use terminus fonts, specifically in my
case ter-128n.  http://terminus-font.sourceforge.net/
4. It does not recognize either my wired or wireless card.  The output
of 'ls /sys/class/net'  is only 'lo'.  The wireless issue is probably
because firmware (iwlwifi-7260-17.ucode) is not available.  However, I
do not think that you should need to install firmware on the iso.
$ lspci|grep -i net
01:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 7260 (rev 73)
07:00.0 Ethernet controller: Qualcomm Atheros AR8161 Gigabit Ethernet
(rev 10)
CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_ATHEROS=y
CONFIG_ATL2=m
CONFIG_ATL1=m
CONFIG_ATL1E=m
CONFIG_ATL1C=m
CONFIG_ALX=m
The ALX module is loaded in my case.
$ lsmod|grep alx
alx                    40960  0
mdio                   16384  1 alx
I will try this on a more generic system tomorrow at school.
Great work so far.
picutils will be part of next rescue-iso (my mistake)
'which' will be included too.
Thanks.
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Included kernel is configured with the exact same config
as yours.....but.. CONFIG_ALX is NOT set!...
(see file /boot/config-4.18.1-0.10.29.ok_8.3 once
you have the iso booted).
This is mot likely the problem, as eudev is not able to discover
WIFI card and populate /sys/class/net
What I should get is:

$ ls /sys/class/net
eth0 lo wlan0

Setting CONFIG_ALX should do it for the eth0 connection. The firmware
is needed for wlan0, but I'm OK without it.

-- Bruce
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Let me generate a new rescue ISO including your findings.
I look forward to it.

-- Bruce
--
http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support
FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html
Unsubscribe: See the above information page

Do not top post on this list.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik
Jean-Marc Pigeon
2018-09-06 02:14:06 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Bruce Dubbs
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Hello Bruce.
[..]
Post by Bruce Dubbs
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Post by Bruce Dubbs
CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_ATHEROS=y
CONFIG_ATL2=m
CONFIG_ATL1=m
CONFIG_ATL1E=m
CONFIG_ATL1C=m
CONFIG_ALX=m
The ALX module is loaded in my case.
$ lsmod|grep alx
alx 40960 0
mdio 16384 1 alx
I will try this on a more generic system tomorrow at school.
Great work so far.
picutils will be part of next rescue-iso (my mistake)
'which' will be included too.
Thanks.
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Included kernel is configured with the exact same config
as yours.....but.. CONFIG_ALX is NOT set!...
(see file /boot/config-4.18.1-0.10.29.ok_8.3 once
you have the iso booted).
This is mot likely the problem, as eudev is not able to discover
WIFI card and populate /sys/class/net
$ ls /sys/class/net
eth0 lo wlan0
Setting CONFIG_ALX should do it for the eth0 connection. The firmware
is needed for wlan0, but I'm OK without it.
-- Bruce
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Let me generate a new rescue ISO including your findings.
I look forward to it.
-- Bruce
New Rescue ISO:
https://okrepo.safe.ca/osukiss/8.3/isos/LFS-8.3-0.10-39-rescue-x86_64.iso

This include terminus-font and /etc/sysconfig/console is
preset to FONT=ter-128n.
(nice font, I was not aware about terminus-font, thank
for the hint).

alx module part of kernel.

kernel-firmware-20180807 is available via 'yum'. Provided
you have eth0 up and running (dhcp-client) with a default route
and /etc/resolv.conf contents set via your dhcp server config.

Keep me posted.
--
A bientÃŽt
===========================================================
Jean-Marc Pigeon E-Mail: ***@safe.ca
SAFE Inc. Phone: (514) 493-4280
Clement, 'a kiss solution' to get rid of SPAM (at last)
Clement' Home base <"http://www.clement.safe.ca">
===========================================================
Bruce Dubbs
2018-09-06 06:05:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Hello,
Post by Bruce Dubbs
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Hello Bruce.
[..]
Post by Bruce Dubbs
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Post by Bruce Dubbs
CONFIG_NET_VENDOR_ATHEROS=y
CONFIG_ATL2=m
CONFIG_ATL1=m
CONFIG_ATL1E=m
CONFIG_ATL1C=m
CONFIG_ALX=m
The ALX module is loaded in my case.
$ lsmod|grep alx
alx                    40960  0
mdio                   16384  1 alx
I will try this on a more generic system tomorrow at school.
Great work so far.
picutils will be part of next rescue-iso (my mistake)
'which' will be included too.
Thanks.
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Included kernel is configured with the exact same config
as yours.....but.. CONFIG_ALX is NOT set!...
(see file /boot/config-4.18.1-0.10.29.ok_8.3 once
you have the iso booted).
This is mot likely the problem, as eudev is not able to discover
WIFI card and populate /sys/class/net
$ ls /sys/class/net
eth0  lo  wlan0
Setting CONFIG_ALX should do it for the eth0 connection.  The firmware
is needed for wlan0, but I'm OK without it.
   -- Bruce
Post by Jean-Marc Pigeon
Let me generate a new rescue ISO including your findings.
I look forward to it.
https://okrepo.safe.ca/osukiss/8.3/isos/LFS-8.3-0.10-39-rescue-x86_64.iso
This include terminus-font and /etc/sysconfig/console is
preset to FONT=ter-128n.
(nice font, I was not aware about terminus-font, thank
for the hint).
alx module part of kernel.
kernel-firmware-20180807 is available via 'yum'. Provided
you have eth0 up and running (dhcp-client) with a default route
and /etc/resolv.conf contents set via your dhcp server config.
Keep me posted.
The network came up for me. The font looks great on my laptop.
It's quite late for me here, so I'll try to look at it a bit more tomorrow.

-- Bruce
--
http://lists.linuxfromscratch.org/listinfo/lfs-support
FAQ: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/faq.html
Unsubscribe: See the above information page

Do not top post on this list.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_s
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